Kain
Monarch of Nosgoth
Patriarch Vampire
Posts: 1,226
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Post by Kain on Mar 4, 2006 23:30:20 GMT -5
Okay, this may come off as an attack on Christianity, but that's not my intention. I just really want to know what you think of this, but: You say Satan went too far, meaning that he did something other than what God intended for him. Now, this would seem to me to suggest that God made a mistake. But if He's perfect, doesn't that mean He can't make a mistake? god didn't make a mistake, satan was given free will, so satans action, althrough more than what god intended, were of his own accord. at least thats my view... Yes thats exactly what we were thinking.
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Kain
Monarch of Nosgoth
Patriarch Vampire
Posts: 1,226
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Post by Kain on Mar 4, 2006 23:35:47 GMT -5
If lucifer was made to test human intergrity by God then how was there too much being done? If adam took the apple he did of his own free will: he didn't have or use his integrity. lucifer did his job, the job God had intended him for in that case. Now keep in mind no challenge is being done here and Uriel and me aren't trying to start an argument just a discussion, but we believe Satan tempted Eve, it was not Lucifer that tempted her. The reason Satan went too far is because Satan showed Eve and Adam "evil" which they hadn't seen before in the sense that Satan challeneged God by telling Eve that if you eat this apple you will gain the knowledge God has. At that point Satan stepped out of his boundaries which was why he fell from God's graces.
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Post by Arkhon Arkhozh on Mar 5, 2006 1:02:37 GMT -5
How can we be sure on who the snake is though? It would make sense to think the rebelious angel Lucifer would assume that form trying to tempt them, and it also makes sense that Satan the angel under God was trying to test them. But are we clear on who the snake really was? I think its even possible the snake could be something else altogether. But taking the snake as Satan, if he really did something that bad, why would Satan still be allowed to test humans under gods command even afterwards? What Im saying is how do we know this isn't what God commanded of Satan. If Satan did do this on his own though, I dont see what he would have to gain from helping Eve know what God knows. It sort of looks as if he was going to far, but under an honest mistake and wasn't aware of how bad the result would be.
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Post by black heart on Mar 5, 2006 1:38:32 GMT -5
well, to answer the first question, no we cant be sure, like someone said, all we have to go by are books, and legends, but i dont think that part is wrong personaly.
and to answer the question "why" i say, if your a being that was created for the purpose of testing humans for all of time, would you settle for only giveing them easy tests for all etirnity? i think not. and since satan was a being ment to show evil to humans, its to be expected that he himself would be "evil"
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Post by Arkhon Arkhozh on Mar 7, 2006 0:48:51 GMT -5
I understand what you mean. I still think though that if the snake was Ha-Satan the heavenly prosecutor though, then neither God or Satan made a mistake, the snake was then just doing his job to the up most and if he did error by going too far, I think it was an honest mistake. Or maybe too clever for his own good in doing his job well. In short I don't think that particular angel (the one whos not the rebelious angel) has anything to gain from turning on God. On the other hand if was the rebelious angel for sure, then his actions would be more understandable. Personally I think its more likely the snake was who we normally think of as Lucifer(Azazel).
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Reno
Deity
I can't have you do that. No one gets in the way of Reno and the Turks...
Posts: 1,853
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Post by Reno on Mar 7, 2006 2:18:26 GMT -5
god didn't make a mistake, satan was given free will, so satans action, althrough more than what god intended, were of his own accord. at least thats my view... Ah, but see, if God is perfect, shouldn't he have been able to predict, and therefore prevent, that from happening?
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Post by uriel on Mar 7, 2006 2:55:03 GMT -5
I'm pretty confused about it. Largely because I didn't have the patience to read Golbez's giant post right after mine. Well, "Golbez's giant post" was pretty good though, so if you have a chance read the whole thing. And again, this thread was created to make us think and research on that topic: and by what we already know and the information we gather from different sources, to share different opinions and to learn knew things. Let us not turn this into pointless fighting..., please!!! Thanks in advance!!!
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Post by uriel on Mar 7, 2006 3:16:29 GMT -5
god didn't make a mistake, satan was given free will, so satans action, althrough more than what god intended, were of his own accord. at least thats my view... Ah, but see, if God is perfect, shouldn't he have been able to predict, and therefore prevent, that from happening? God is perfect and He could predict what Adam and Eve would do. He warned them not to eat from the "forbidden fruit", but don't forget that God also gave them free will. What the "evil" one did, the one that was created to tempt humans, he challenged God and because Adam an Eve didn't have the knowledge they liked the idea of "having knowledge" and being "equal" to God. Imagine a little kid- innocent and not knowing the "evil" part yet. If you offer that same child a knife and if you tell him that if he kills himself that will be great- he will enter the world of the magic where there are all kinds of candies and so on..., the child will do this even if his mom told him not to play with knives. Why? Because of curiosity. The child didn't have the knowledge. Same thing with Adam and Eve. They didn't know the difference between good and evil. The offer sounded good to them- interesting, new and since God cannot affect their free will, they had the choice and they've made it. I think this was meant to happen since the creation of the world, since that war between evil and good started...A lot of things will be hidden from our eyes just because we don't have the potential to know them, but it won't hurt us to try and reach to a new level of understanding of what happened or at least have some opinion on it... I hope that post answer some of the questions you had...
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Reno
Deity
I can't have you do that. No one gets in the way of Reno and the Turks...
Posts: 1,853
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Post by Reno on Mar 7, 2006 13:28:31 GMT -5
You say God can't affect their free will. I say, why not?
Sorry to keep driving at this, but it just makes absolutely no sense to me.
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Kain
Monarch of Nosgoth
Patriarch Vampire
Posts: 1,226
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Post by Kain on Mar 7, 2006 13:34:37 GMT -5
You say God can't affect their free will. I say, why not? Whether or not God can actually affect our free will, I do not know, I do beleive that he created us not wanting to affect our free will. He wanted us to think for ourselves and make our own choices, live and learn if you will. And I don't think anyone minds you pushing this further Reno.
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