Kain
Monarch of Nosgoth
Patriarch Vampire
Posts: 1,226
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Post by Kain on Mar 4, 2006 0:19:46 GMT -5
Uriel and myself wanted to post this just because it always intrigued us, and we figured it would do the same for you guys.
The accepted belief of Christianity is that Luicer and Satan are the same person. In fact the common belief is that Satan is Lucifer's title. Over the years he has taken on many names including: Most Unclean, Little Horn, Snake, Son of Predition, Lucifer, Satan, The Devil, etc. However it is not one angel at all, but two completely different angels.
Lucifer, in fact, was the greatest angel, his name meaning Light Giver, Light Bringer, and Brightest Star. His banishment was because of his complete egotism and pure malice -- his sin, pride. This then indicates that Lucifer, not Satan was indeed the first angel to have sinned. Lucifer has been equated to Satan due to the misreading of the passage Isaiah 14:12 that was applied to the King of Babylon.
Satan, on the other hand, was created on the sixth day of the creation by God, whose purpose was to test humans integrity. However he went too far when he showed Adam and Eve the evil side.
It is Lucifer that is the ruler of Hell and Lucifer can, in fact, return to Heaven because he chose to leave Heaven because of his ego and pride, even though it was Michael that finally banished him. Satan, on the other hand, sinned against God by tempting Jesus, who for all purposes, is God in a human body as far as Uriel and me are concerned.
Hopefully this is interesting but we know it is a little confusing.
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Reno
Deity
I can't have you do that. No one gets in the way of Reno and the Turks...
Posts: 1,853
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Post by Reno on Mar 4, 2006 2:03:49 GMT -5
Okay, this may come off as an attack on Christianity, but that's not my intention. I just really want to know what you think of this, but:
You say Satan went too far, meaning that he did something other than what God intended for him. Now, this would seem to me to suggest that God made a mistake. But if He's perfect, doesn't that mean He can't make a mistake?
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Post by Arkhon Arkhozh on Mar 4, 2006 3:29:24 GMT -5
Its an interesting theory but Im not sure if its as simple as that. Lucifer itself could be considered just another title for what we interpret as the devil. It did all start with that a misinterprtiation about Babylon. The name Lucifer was the name of an old Roman god long forgotten(not Greek in origin, and his story in mythology is unknown.) Lucifer has even been used as a normal name, with even having a pope named Lucifer. Even Jesus has been refered to as Lucifer.(As Light bearer I would imagine) And it does refer to the morning star too. But Lucifer was sort of seen as the position the devil once held, not as the actual angelic name of the devil. As for the name of Satan or who was actually normally called Satan or Ha-Satan was really an angel under god whos job was to test humans and see if they would make the right choice. He was the heavenly prosecutor. According to the Jews in the current state of their religion, he is still a good angel that works under God testing us. In the New testament the devil is clearly around but when looking in the old testamant or hebrew sources its hard to find who the rebellious angel was. You have the book of Enoch right? I know of one persons views who has studied the book of Enoch and all its various translations in detail and noted that the very oldest known pure Hebrew/Jewish source of both a fallen angel and an enemy to God was actually Azazel the angel who with the other angels that were with him came to mix around with the humans and teach them knowledge. There is also a character known as Samael, he is sometimes mixed with Ha-Satan(Heavenly prosecutor) in the stories as if he were the same guy. But sometimes Samael was very different and was known as King of the devils. So they might of been two diferent individuals. There were many Satans and was usually used as a title against enemies of the Jews. There is also a Jewish mystic who thinks there is a greater satan(the angel who rebeled against god) and a lesser satan(gods angel who tests people). But basically im more inclined to believe that the rebellious angel or the real enemy of God was either Samael or Azazel (Perhaps both as the same guy.) as the real idenity of our common conception of Satan the devil. It could also possibly be a fallen angel called shemyaza too. Who was with Azazel and also started a rebellion too. Do you recall what your book of Enoch had to say about Azazel or Shemyaza?
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Post by fenris on Mar 4, 2006 3:37:28 GMT -5
That is a very interesting point you raise. The problem here really is do we really knoww hat happened? Ok let's not argue weither or not god and the devil exist and lets't not argue over weither or not there was a rebellion. So let's say these events and beings are factual the problem is we only have myths to go by. Ultimatly these are stories told by So in thee nd the truth is lost to us and we can try to decipher the truth from the texts we have but even then we can never really be sure.
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Post by bluecommander on Mar 4, 2006 18:39:56 GMT -5
If lucifer was made to test human intergrity by God then how was there too much being done? If adam took the apple he did of his own free will: he didn't have or use his integrity. lucifer did his job, the job God had intended him for in that case.
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Post by Arkhon Arkhozh on Mar 4, 2006 19:35:00 GMT -5
Thats what the Jews would say. Normally most Jews say that Satan or Ha-Satan still works for God doing his job and there is no struggle between God and an evil force. Though Jews did believe otherwise once along time ago before Christainty. and their belief in an opponet to God was simalar to the christian concept of the devil.
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Post by Arkhon Arkhozh on Mar 4, 2006 19:59:10 GMT -5
Now I would like to bring up the issue of Ahriman. He is the god of evil in the Zoroasterian faith. The Zoroasterian religion is one of few monotheistic faiths that developed outside the Abrahamic family tree of faiths (Jews,Christanity,Islam) but is still somehow very close and has a alot of simalarties though under its own unique style. There was a period of time where Jews did go to Persia where Zoroastrianism was praticed and it was said both people influenced eachother and felt that their own monotheistic view on God did refer to the same God. But the point I wanted to make was about Ahriman. Who would be the Zoroasterian equvalent to the opponent to God. Ahriman is viewed alittle differently then Jewish and christian concept. Rather then being made by God, he simply existed as long as God has. He is sometimes even refered to as God's twin brother. He is the God of evil and lies and the source of all misery and evil in the world. He is said to be slighlty weaker then God but almost equal. He became what he became because he chose evil conciously.
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Post by bluecommander on Mar 4, 2006 20:30:59 GMT -5
I'm gonna just walk away from this board...
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Post by fenris on Mar 4, 2006 20:51:43 GMT -5
Probably the best course of action.
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Post by Arkhon Arkhozh on Mar 4, 2006 20:56:08 GMT -5
Well I just figure for a topic on Satan to bring up all the possibilities, I know that Zoroasterism is outside of the Judaic and Christian famliy, but I thought it be interesting to bring up due to the simalarities between Ahriman and Satan.
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Post by fenris on Mar 4, 2006 21:03:18 GMT -5
It is an interesting topic to bring up.
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Reno
Deity
I can't have you do that. No one gets in the way of Reno and the Turks...
Posts: 1,853
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Post by Reno on Mar 4, 2006 23:01:25 GMT -5
I'm pretty confused about it. Largely because I didn't have the patience to read Golbez's giant post right after mine.
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Post by black heart on Mar 4, 2006 23:13:33 GMT -5
Okay, this may come off as an attack on Christianity, but that's not my intention. I just really want to know what you think of this, but: You say Satan went too far, meaning that he did something other than what God intended for him. Now, this would seem to me to suggest that God made a mistake. But if He's perfect, doesn't that mean He can't make a mistake? god didn't make a mistake, satan was given free will, so satans action, althrough more than what god intended, were of his own accord. at least thats my view...
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Post by Arkhon Arkhozh on Mar 4, 2006 23:14:18 GMT -5
I find I have to explain eveyrthing fully these days cause if I don't people often complain why I didn't mention that or why I assumed this. By showing you the whole thing, its to help let you know where Im comming from and it normally satisfies people. But if you want a brief version of my big post then this is basically all it said.
Satan or Ha-Satan was an angel under God whos job was to test people between good or evil. According to the jews hes still good and still works for God. Jews don't normally believe in an evil Satan.(some do especially in ancient times but not anymore) As for the idenity of the rebious angel it could very well be Azazel from the Book of Enock(or possibly his buddy Shemyaza). Its here we have the first jewish/hebrew story of an opponet to God and rebelous angel. There is also a figure in the bible called Samael who is sometimes just seen as Ha-Satan but sometimes seems to be a very different character whos just king of the devils. My theory is Satan as the devil may be idetified as Samael or as Azazel and they may possibly be the same.
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Post by fenris on Mar 4, 2006 23:18:23 GMT -5
I like the long posts for the information they can provide but they can be a bit confusing. It does help to have the shortened version as well but I do understand why you post the full story.
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